tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post591306663623560428..comments2024-02-13T21:53:44.266+13:00Comments on Mark Keown: Is Laidlaw College “Liberal”?Mark J. Keownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15790396917682891386noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-62126635240411610242020-10-14T04:27:44.256+13:002020-10-14T04:27:44.256+13:00yeezys
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In a sense I agree with you. However, anachr...Hi. <br /><br />In a sense I agree with you. However, anachronistic or not, the implication of the paper and M. D'Angelo's paper is that these partnerships may have been sexual, i.e. what we might call lesbianism. <br /><br />Using D'Angelo's three couplets. Martha and Mary are sisters. If "sisters" is sexual, then are we to assume that Lazarus their "brother" was a part of a sexual triangle? <br /><br />Tryphena and Tryphosa feature in the same letter as Rom 1:26-27 which makes it unlikely.<br /><br />As for Euodia and Syntyche, there is nothing to suggest their relationship was sexual. If they were, sexual immorality would feature in Philippians. However, it doesn't, unlike most of the other undisputed Paulines.<br /><br />The whole idea is clutching at straws and doesn't help the argument about sexual relationships. Rather, it feels like special pleading and will cause biblically minded people not to take it seriously. <br /><br />Better to admit Paul repudiated same sex relationships, and then argue on other grounds such as Jesus' attitude, science, and culture. <br /><br />Cheers, Mark.Mark J. Keownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15790396917682891386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-89342477235698508572013-07-18T11:07:51.108+12:002013-07-18T11:07:51.108+12:00Hi Mark,
Interesting post and discussion. I just ...Hi Mark,<br /><br />Interesting post and discussion. I just want to pick up on the reference to the issue of so-called "lesbianism in Phil 4:2-3" in regards to the paper at ANZATS. To my recollection, the presenter did not, in fact, argue that these characters were lesbians, for such a classification is anachronistic. Rather, the presenter assessed the various hermeneutical standpoints that give rise to different interpretations. What was argued is that these characters do not fit easily into any categories of modern sexuality, which is what makes them "queer".<br /><br />RupertRupertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-55840502916980009632013-07-18T09:02:47.331+12:002013-07-18T09:02:47.331+12:00Part 2: Thanks Louisa, yes we definitely need to c...Part 2: Thanks Louisa, yes we definitely need to continue studying the bible for a range of reasons: 1) To know it and live it; 2) To defend it against false ideas; 3) To bring fresh insights from it. It is amazing how often this still happens even after all these years; 4) To ensure you are a "worker who handles the word of truth" correctly. Heresy comes when people distort it. We need to ensure that we, as preachers and teachers, are being true to the gospel. How else can you do that unless you study it? 5) Because we can show when we do that the Christian message is not stupid and we are not fools. When the bible uses the word "fool" in terms of us, it is not that we are unstudied ignorant people, but that there is a foolishness in the gospel. We need fresh thinking all the time to challenge the false thinking of the world. 6) To answer fresh challenges from the world. E.g. gay marriage. We need to rearticulate in today's language the gospel. We need people all the time, immersing in the Bible, learning it, studying it, communicating it. It is essential.<br /><br />A good example is slavery. For 1600 years or so Christians did not confront slavery. Over time, as they studied the bible, Wilberforce and others realised that slavery was not God's ideal. They worked out the implications of Gal 3:28; Philemon; Eph 6:9-10. They realised it was wrong. So they stood against it. Believe it or not, the church has misinterpreted the bible in the past, and it was because good Christians studied it that we realised it was wrong. I do a agree there is a danger, and study can have the opposite effect. But that doesn't mean we don't study. We should always be "going deeper" as I like to say. <br /><br />Some students leave LC less confident in their faith. That is something we are always working on and a risk when you study. But many many more leave LC on fire for Jesus with a much deeper faith. I was one of those and so was my wife. I loved the place. I loved the study. I am glad for it. Remember many are leaving the faith who never went to a college too. <br /><br />We always have to dialogue with everyone. Why? Because we are called to preach the gospel in today's world. This means talking to people, debating them, discussing with them, challenging their ideas. Take Dawkins for example. Christians have read his book on atheism and written responses. That is a dialogue. We need to counter liberal ideas. That is our call. I do agree that we need faith like a child. Remember that the person who said this was Jesus who was very very educated. So was Luke, who was a brilliant historian. So was Paul, who was a brilliant thinker. The bible was written by people who studied. Why shouldn't we follow their example? <br /><br />Cheers.<br />MarkMark J. Keownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15790396917682891386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-34605351927165531022013-07-18T09:02:20.759+12:002013-07-18T09:02:20.759+12:00Part One: Thanks for your comments. To Phil and Am...Part One: Thanks for your comments. To Phil and Amp; Sue, thanks for the confirmation.<br /><br />Thanks Albert. When we run an academic conference at LC, we are part of the wider "Christian" conversation and so there will be papers presented that we disagree with. In terms of Pauline authorship of Ephesians: I agree that Paul wrote Ephesians, but I don't think it makes you a liberal to believe that he didn't. I know a few people who reject Pauline authorship but still see Ephesians as holy scripture and believe in its message. They believe do not see the use of Paul's name negatively, but normative in the ancient context. I disagree, but I don't think it makes you a liberal. <br /><br />In terms of lesbianism in Phil 4:2-3, if you went to the paper, you would have heard my critique. I think it is nonsense to be honest. Still, a person is able to present that view. That is their prerogative. When we host a conference like this, we cannot rule out people sharing their views. They are not speaking on behalf of Laidlaw. Similarly, when we go to their universities to present, they don't stop us presenting our evangelical views. That is the nature of open academic discourse.<br /><br />You speak of the "ideal" and that we should classify those who fall short of this ideal. Well, that is problematic. What is the ideal on contentious matters. On some things, e.g. the bodily resurrection of Jesus, no problem. Or, to use the earlier example, that Euodia and Syntyche we lesbians. We can identify that as false and an indication of an overly liberal theology. On other contentious matters like the exact events of the end times, the nature of creation, etc, who decides the ideal. We have our opinions, we argue them, we defend them, but we have to accept that there are uncertainties. It depends on how much subjectivity we allow. Some are very narrow. As you say, I and LC are very accommodating. That is the nature of a broad centrist evangelical college. There has to be a degree of tolerance and openness. That said, you will hear LC lecturers speak out against heretical things too. <br /><br />With respect, "verbal inerrancy" is a highly disputed doctrine. The early church never used that term. Nor will you find mid-trib pre-mill eschatology in the early church. That is a construct of Darby. Whether my comment is true or not, it is contentious. Calvin did not believe in it, nor Luther. Heterosexual marriage, yes, agree. That should not be contentious. Justification by faith for sure, although there are a range of other metaphors such as sanctification, reconciliation, adoption, etc, I would want to put alongside--all by faith of course. <br /><br />Mark J. Keownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15790396917682891386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-91168173888705594822013-07-17T18:03:50.428+12:002013-07-17T18:03:50.428+12:00Thanks Mark, I have a few comments.
Do we really n...Thanks Mark, I have a few comments.<br />Do we really need to keep studying the Bible? Surely we know what it says by now, we just need to continue to live it out. I realise this is hard since most people think we are total fools for believing, and yet isn't that exactly what Paul knew would be required? A willingness to accept the 'foolishness' of the gospel.<br />It seems to me that academics are compromised because they have to come up with new and different interpretations just to have a job. For this reason, I think Bible College should be preparation for ministry, nothing more. If this was the case, we would do a lot more good for the gospel cause, I believe. Many leave Laidlaw with less of an idea of what the gospel is, and less faith in God, than ever. Others leave just confused. Others leave effectively liberal - a tragedy in my opinion.<br />Mark, you define yourself repeatedly and proudly as an evangelical so you must have some concerns regarding the influence of liberalism? Do we really need to 'dialogue' with everything? Do we really need to allow every thought and opinion around to 'shape' us? I don't think we do. God will shape those of us who let him and Jesus does not say that this shaping requires study, especially not the critical secular style study we often engage in at Laidlaw. What IS required, however, is the faith of a child. <br />Laidlaw style study, in my opinion, does not help with that and so is at best an interesting diversion for the academically inclined (I speak for myself here :) ... and at worst, destructive to the very gospel it professes to care so very much about. <br />Rant over :) Louisanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-28088686712400270442013-07-17T12:47:06.909+12:002013-07-17T12:47:06.909+12:00I don't usually rub shoulders with liberal typ...I don't usually rub shoulders with liberal types (except once when I stood alongside former US President Bill Clinton at a certain function, but that is another story...). So when I attended the annual conference of The Australian and New Zealand Association of Theological Schools (ANZATS) at Laidlaw College earlier this month, I was shocked to be so unequally yoked over the dinner table with one so-called scholar who did not believe that Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians(!) and a second lady scholar who believed there were LESBIAN SO-CALLED CHRISTIANS in the New Testament(!?!!) <br /><br />That said, these so-called scholars hailed from the Secular Universities, and they were - I understand - only attending due to the conference being held at Laidlaw College. It is just a shame that the conference organisers could not have rooted out these types before they influenced weaker minds with their slippery liberalism. Don't you think?<br /><br />One more point. While you are entitled to your (rather loose and all-encompassing) definition of evangelicalism, for me it is better to define the ideal, and to classify all those who fall short of this ideal as such, rather than beating about the bush. I have my own definition, and while some may say it is not so "tolerant" as yours, I would ask those who espouse "tolerance" this question: what kind of "tolerance" is it that would rule out, in advance, my own definition of a true evangelical Christian? And so we find that the so-called "tolerant liberals" are not so "tolerant" after all. <br /><br />So, biblically speaking, while there are those who hold to some of the necessary tenets of true evangelicalism, they have opened themselves up to the slippery probing of liberalism if they do not hold unreservedly to belief in verbal inerrancy of Scripture, mid-trib pre-millenial eschatology, complementarianism, supralapsarianism, heterosexual relationships as the only natural kind, and justification by faith. And this is no more than what the Early Church held to.Albert Squiresnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-51766831883715601042013-07-17T10:13:06.693+12:002013-07-17T10:13:06.693+12:00Thanks Mark, all these things express exactly why...Thanks Mark, all these things express exactly why I loved my time at Laidlaw. I felt challenged daily, I found myself understanding my faith and my commitment to following Jesus in new and and evermore challenging ways and exciting ways.Rev Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13520064052486161279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-63030287541514271272013-07-16T17:07:41.961+12:002013-07-16T17:07:41.961+12:00Thanks all. Yes, Peter, the definitions are proble...Thanks all. Yes, Peter, the definitions are problematic, and that is part of the problem. <br /><br />To Anonymous who writes, '"Every lecturer has substantially agreed to this statement." Is substantially a qualifier, or do they agree with the full substance, or how is the phrase being used?' The substance has to be agreed to, although there may be one or two clauses that different lecturers can disagree with. For example, the Statement affirms a renewed earth. If a lecturer believed in a new earth, then I am sure there would be no problem. A few are evolutionary theists, and so would want to define "death" a little differently. So, there is some room for differences on matters of detail. <br /><br />Thanks Sam. The "core of the gospel" is a difficult term. I think we would all affirm the gospel as usually understood, but the faculty would vary in its commitment to various dimensions of the gospel depending on their interests and specialty areas. We may have failed to articulate clearly our commitment to core elements and this we are working on at present. We really want people to know we are committed to the gospel, to salvation in Christ, to the cross, to life in Christ, to the church, to the Spirit, to wholehearted discipleship, to reconciliation, to social justice, to evangelism, to the Trinity, to love, and to a whole gospel with Christ at the center. Thanks for your comments because it reminds us to emphasize the core of what God is up to.<br /><br />Thanks for your helpful comments Caleb. For me, evangelicalism supremely refers to a theological method that derives the centre of all theology and life from Scripture. This leads us to place Christ, his life, death, and resurrection at the centre. It leads us to place the Spirit, Church, and mission at the centre of ongoing life. Because Scripture can be read differently, and no-one can claim the ultimate reading, there will be great diversity. I celebrate that. And, yes, the Wesleyan quadrilateral is very helpful. <br /><br />Thanks all.Mark J. Keownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15790396917682891386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-69428070617644108642013-07-16T13:30:09.534+12:002013-07-16T13:30:09.534+12:00Very well said.
Some groups within evangelicalism...Very well said.<br /><br />Some groups within evangelicalism seem to confuse their own particular belief-system with "evangelicalism," therefore anything that opposes or questions those beliefs must be "liberal". Only by (mis-)understanding liberalism in this way could Laidlaw be considered liberal.<br /><br />But I think this is a mis-diagnosis. Evangelicalism is much more about your other definitions (commitment to scripture, Christ and the gospel etc), than about one particular static belief-system. So there is a lot of diversity within evangelicalism, as there is within any healthy academic movement/perspective.<br /><br />Laidlaw reflects some of this evangelical diversity. I think one of Laidlaw's strengths is its ability to showcase some of the diversity of legitimate, orthodox views on various issues, and (on some issues) to help provide more nuanced and critical evangelical views, in place of popular understandings often mistaken for the sole evangelical (or Christian!) view.<br /><br />PS: Sam Hight, in my experience Laidlaw teaches the Wesleyan Quadrilateral (or Pentalateral), with Scripture firmly placed first on the list of authoritative sources. We're taught to take into account 'non-biblical sources' like context precisely so that we can understand the biblical sources better. Moreover, we're taught to engage culture through the lens of Scripture, rather than the other way around.<br /><br />Anyway, where do you get your yardstick to measure Laidlaw by? Have you studied somewhere else that you feel is stronger on the gospel or evangelical orthodoxy than Laidlaw is or was?Calebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13619381698748105116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-46241322969319343472013-07-15T23:32:10.939+12:002013-07-15T23:32:10.939+12:00I visited Laidlaw for an open day about 7 years ag...I visited Laidlaw for an open day about 7 years ago - around the time the rebranding/name-change occurred. I left feeling like Laidlaw was pretty weak on the core of the gospel.<br /><br />I'm not certain that it's a fair dichotomy to group as either liberal or evangelical. I'm not sure that evangelical is really evangelical any more. Even holding to an authoritative and inspired view of scripture doesn't mean much these days. Guys like Rob Bell, who are clearly on the "liberal" end of the spectrum, hold to these same affirmations.<br /><br />Something that has begun to concern me more and more is the over-emphasis on biblical theology and the taking of non-biblical sources of context as authoritative. These combine to bring substantially different interpretations than what has been considered orthodox among evangelical circles for a long time. Frankly, it seems to me that the Spirit is not in many of these interpretations because these people often have a warped view of the glory of God. We must be wary of the latest fads and interpretations which better match the shifting form of popular culture.<br /><br />We have to remember also that Christianity presents answers to a hurting world and not just questions, questions, and more questions in an endless "conversation".<br /><br />Hopefully this "sneaky liberalism" isn't present at Laidlaw these days. I do hear lots of positive things about the place from friends who decided to attend, but it's a little like Life FM: when you tune in from time to time you hear worrying things which really make you pray for them.Sam Highthttp://www.samhight.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-22315897393572980812013-07-15T21:45:54.801+12:002013-07-15T21:45:54.801+12:00Thanks Mark,
Helpful stuff. Can you help me by e...Thanks Mark, <br /><br />Helpful stuff. Can you help me by explaining what this means: "Every lecturer has substantially agreed to this statement." Is substantially a qualifier, or do they agree with the full substance, or how is the phrase being used?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6374761658646185874.post-30275390479408475652013-07-15T17:49:37.420+12:002013-07-15T17:49:37.420+12:00Mark we get problems when we assume that the only ...Mark we get problems when we assume that the only differences in theology are liberal vs evangelical. There are churches with a strong evangelical thought-base who are thoroughly liturgical in their expression, and yet I've heard people try to fit them into the libevang dichotomy. The same with people who come from a sacramentalist perspective who have a strongly orthodox, trinitarian faith that reeks of the work of the Holy Spirit. So we really have to get over the need to brand everything that's unfamiliar in expression or disturbing in it's taste to us with one of those judgemental epithets like "liberal" or "new age". I remember being judged as liberal in one parish because in one service I went with responses as a key part of worship.<br />Good thinking Mark and thanks. I think the clear and creative thinking at Laidlaw deserves our continuing support and prayer.<br />Pete BPete at largehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07392742164293026717noreply@blogger.com